I get tired of "discussing" topics with believers. It is often a rational vs irrational argument and they are more emotionally attached to their arguments which makes it hard to stay polite. This is why I have been writing on my political blog lately because the conversation is much more thoughtful despite the extreme views brought out on both sides. A political discussion can get heated and emotional for some, but I think it comes down to me actually being able to see the other sides logic, whereas it isn't entirely possible in a religious discussion.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
I laughed when you put "discussing" in quotes, because that bit of sarcasm sums up a lot of the conversations I've had. I also find that political conversations are better, but only if those involved actually know what they believe and why. Far too many of the theists I have discussions with use their experiences as arguments, and in the same breath invalidate mine.
Cyberkitten
· 1 year ago
Mike said: Far too many of the theists I have discussions with use their experiences as arguments, and in the same breath invalidate mine.
Unfortunately that is the way of things with any Absolutist belief. I 'enjoy' debating with Theists as long as they are open to debate which, in my experience, tends not to last for very long. I'm still undecided if most of them are unwilling to debate their faith or simply unable to do so...
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
For years I've jokingly said "There are absolutely no absolutes." It wasn't until I used it as an atheist that I received rabid responses from people who didn't see the irony.
I would say some are unwilling and some are unable, but there are some who are able and willing.
Karla
· 1 year ago
I'm sorry both for those who are unwilling and those who are unable, I am willing and I'm striving to be able.
Are not atheists absolutists as well? Unless your an agnostic that is. Maintaining that all religions are false is a greater absolutist position than a Christian who says there is truth in all worldviews/belief systems/religion but that two contradictory truth claims cannot be true.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
You are definitely much more able than many I've conversed with. :-) I appreciate the thought and effort that goes into your responses.
Yes, some atheists are absolutists, but my reason for not being an absolutist is the same as my argument against atheism when I was a Christian. I am not omniscient, thus I can not know for a fact that God does not exist.
I'm glad that you can see some truth in other religions. Someone wise once said, "Is truth not the same in any mouth?" However, there are many Christians who do not acknowledge the truth found in other religions. In fact, I've met many Christians who were appalled at event he suggestion that other religions even contained a little truth. When I was a Christian I always felt God was big enough to reach anyone, anywhere, regardless of circumstance or religious affiliation.
Certainly we can agree that "two contradictory truth claims cannot be true." But truth claims in religion are not quite the same as mathematical or scientific truth claims. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? ;-)
Karla
· 1 year ago
I didn't say I embrace pluralism. I am saying that I can read a book by an atheist and find some truth there (not that God doesn't exist, but maybe truth in that religion is harmful on that we can agree) I can agree with some ideas a Budahist monk may have but not that Buddah is god. I just wanted to clarify.
Karla
· 1 year ago
After speaking with you I think you have had a relationship with Jesus. I don't believe your experiences with Him were false. I don't think He has left you either. You may be going through a dark time, but if you keep your heart open you'll find Him again.
All religions can't be right. But that doesn't mean they are all wrong either. Even Christianity doesn't teach that all others are 100% false and have no truth in them. As a Christian I know that there is truth in other religions for we all live in the real world. However, the truth is distorted and incomplete.
I don't want to believe anything because it makes me happy. I believe something because it's true and for no other reason. Moreover, Christianity isn't simply about believing but becoming. Being a Christian is who I am not just what I believe.
I'm sorry that you are weary. Life is found in truth. I hope your hunger for truth will aid your journey and bring you life once again.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Thank you. I do appreciate you not invalidating my experiences. None of my Christian friends would say my experiences were false either. Ironically, the conclusion I must come to if God does not exist, is that all Christians are false converts. ;-)
I haven't read St. John of The Cross in a while, but what I recall of his works regarding the dark night of the soul is nothing like what I am experiencing now. I have life now and have it more abundantly. It's incredibly freeing to wake up and realize that I'm no longer a member of a group that thinks it, amongst many, is the 100% truth.
Karla
· 1 year ago
So now your amongst the atheist who think they know the truth? I'm not sure you can get away from exclusive truth claims. It is more possible to find the truth and hang on to that then to think we can come up with something that's all inclusive. Truth by it's very nature is exclusive of non-truth. That doesn't mean anyone ought to force or manipulate another into the truth. Love doesn't do that.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
No, where did I say that? I said I am no longer amongst a group that claims certainty when it comes to truth.
Dad
· 1 year ago
I sure don't subscribe to the "Gospel of I Know For Certain and You Don't philosophy" either Mike! Since no one can prove or disprove the existence of God and it is after all a "belief" not a "fact", then why can't everyone be nice about it all??? People who believe that their way is the only way and who criticize others who believe differently are discounting them as they disrespect their beliefs. Not a good way to get anyone to express interest in what you believe!
Karla
· 1 year ago
It's not a meaningless belief. Everything hangs upon the reality of His existence.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Where did my Dad say it was meaningless?
If everything hangs on God's existence he sure doesn't seem too concerned about a consistent message.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Thanks Dad, I agree.
Dan
· 1 year ago
For your soul's sake, I need an hour of your time. Please
Dan, I'm teary eyed knowing that you cared enough about me to spam my site with an off topic video from someone who is telling me I did Christianity wrong. Oh darn. Washer is a hard core Calvinist, oh boy that's original. I grew up Presbyterian, I'm pretty sure I bumped into Calvinism once or twice.
When you go out to eat do you leave tracts instead of cash?
Dan, when I became a Christian I turned away from sin. I destroyed my evil cassette tapes and books. I didn't say any magic words to become a Christian. I repented of my sins and dedicated my life to Christ. I don't have a clue what day I accepted Christ and I railed against many of the things Washer railed against in that video.
You didn't do Christianity wrong. And it's okay to step back and have doubt and be uncertain. God's goodness remains and He will still be pursuing you, not in so religious a manner as Calvinist preachers, but in loving ways that I think you will know He is still there.
He has given us a consistent message, I think you know it well.
Question do you read atheists books like Dawkins and stuff?
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Oh, I don't think I did Christianity wrong, but many branches of Christianity might say that I did, and be able to support that belief with scripture, not to mention the "You were never a real Christian" crowd. So, I agree with you that I didn't do Christianity wrong, but what guarantees that we are correct?
I have gleaned a consistent message from scripture, but that also has required me to struggle with and perhaps even ignore difficult content in the Bible and I'm not talking about miracles, I believed in those.
I've read Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris, and while I agree with them on many points, I do not necessarily agree with their final conclusions. The existence of this site is evidence that I do not think religions should be eliminated.
I may very well end up a theist again at some point, but I seriously doubt it will be as any kind of traditional Christian. I just don't believe those things any more.
Karla
· 1 year ago
Have you also explored apologetics type books in your quest for truth? I could recommend some for you to consider if your interested.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
I was an amateur apologist when I was a Christian, so I read quite a few apologetic works. I can only think of one apologetic work I've read since de-converting. Out of curiosity, who would you recommend?
Karla
· 1 year ago
My favorite authors are Ravi Zacharias, Francis Schaeffer, and C.S. Lewis. I'm just getting into reading G.K. Chesterton as well.
I would recommend "The Real Face of Atheism" by Ravi Zacharias as well as "Jesus Among Other Gods"
Also, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel
"Miracles" and "Mere Christianity" are excellent by C.S. Lewis if you like very intellectual books.
Have you read any of those?
Karla
· 1 year ago
Oh and by Francis Schaeffer I would recommend his trilogy "He is There and Is not Silent" , "The God Who is There" and "How Shall We Then Live"
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
I've read and own several books by Francis Schaeffer though not in many years. I've also read many by C.S. Lewis. I own the Lotus and The Cross by Ravi Zacharias and found it interesting and useful in showing the differences between Christianity and Buddhism. I've also seen him in a few debates.
I haven't read Strobel's The Case For Christ, but I did read The Case For a Creator, but found it almost dishonest in it's onesidedness and understand that he uses similar methods in The Case For Christ.
I did re-read Mere Christianity after de-converting and did find his borderline pluralism very refreshing.
Karla
· 1 year ago
I've never seen anything pluralistic by Lewis. He did speak of how the ancient myths shined the truth of God and helped draw Him to the reality of Christianity.
You know Strobel was an atheist when he embarked on his Case For Christ research. I found it in line with all the other books I've read on the topic from many different authors and experts. I try to read nearly 50 books a year. I typically average 40 a year but I strive for 52.
I did enjoy the Lotus and the Cross. I've read every book by Ravi and have many DVD's, CD's and attended two lectures.
Check out The Real Face of Atheism and see what you think.
Karla
· 1 year ago
Is your main concern about Christianity believing in something that excludes other paths to knowing God?
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
I find it unlikely that if God exists, he would be so small as to not be able to communicate to people regardless of their proximity to the middle east and those 66 books. if Christianity is true, then I want to believe in it.
Totally off topic: I'm not liking the way these comments are getting squished here. Oh well. ;-)
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
I'd have to find it, but I'm almost positive that in Mere Christianity Lewis talks about some people of other faiths being saved or something like that. Not all of them mind you.
Karla
· 1 year ago
Hmm, I don't recall that. I know he talks about the truth of God being reflected in all religions and mythologies but I think he always says Jesus is the way.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Here's a thread I found when I searched for C.S. Lewis and pluralist. Right at the top is the passage I was recalling.
There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position."
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Mike aka Monolith: "Out of curiosity, who would you recommend?"
In a sense, ' kind of self-defeating, because it's almost guaranteed(with supporting evidence above) that the Theist will recommend only companion books that support their chosen deity. If the suggestion is that "Truth" is found in religiously revealed "knowledge", then one shouldn't limit themselves to one philosophy, right? Why not explore Mormonism, Jainism, Buddhism, etc., etc., etc., etc., too?
Also, I respectfully take issue with the notion that "God" - presumably an "Omniscient", "Omnipotent", and "Omni-present" being - is "still pursuing you"(Mike). Seriously now, said being knows precisely what it would take to reconvert you. Your "free will" shouldn't be a factor, because you can still exercise your "free will" to reject this "God", even if it "caught you" in its "pursuit" of you.
Boom'.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Agreed. I still find reading this stuff interesting though.
Cyberkitten
· 1 year ago
karla said: "Miracles" and "Mere Christianity" are excellent by C.S. Lewis if you like very intellectual books.
[laughs] I was lent 'Mere Christianity' by a christian @ work who (maybe) hoped to convert me - apparently the Lewis book did it for him. After struggling with the badly constructed 'arguments' I gave up after the first 3 sections and gave him his book back. I found it to be terribly written nonsense and *really* struggled to think how it could have convinced anyone to become a Christian.
Karla
· 1 year ago
I've heard people say both what your saying and what your friend said. I grew up reading his children's series The Chronicles of Narnia. I've read them countless times. Then in college I got into all his philosophical books and I've just about read all of them. I have a few more to go. I've always enjoyed his style of writing. It's rather heady at times though.
Blissfit
· 1 year ago
Christianity is upside down believing that Jesus suffered on the cross. It would be the ultimate irony that the Christian faith, with its core belief of Jesus suffering to pay a price, turned out to be the prophesied anti-Christ. Because suffering is anti-Christ since it is what He miraculously saved many people from His entire public life. And on top of the fact that by definition it is impossible for God to suffer, why would Jesus not save himself from suffering on the cross, as He did with every other suffering person, or group of people, He encountered?
Now the above upside down Christian belief further deludes devout Christians, as well as people in other religions, into preaching and believing the backward advice that one should look forward to going to heaven in the future as the result, or reward, of action in the present. Because as everyone knows, the problem with looking forward to results is it prevents or distracts one's full enjoyment of what he or she does in the present, and thereby miss out on the wise council of Ralph Waldo Emerson, who said, “The reward of a thing well done is having done it.”
I propose Heaven and Hell are in one's present experience of good and bad respectively; and when we drop our body, and we are beyond time and space, Heaven and Hell will be the sum total of all the good and bad we experienced as an image of God on Earth. And if one has not done justice to his or her self, experiencing the wonders of living in the image of God, they will be remorseful like having sold a diamond for the price of spinach.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
That is a very interesting perspective. How did you arrive at these conclusions?
Blissfit
· 1 year ago
@ Mike and Matt
Did you guys every watch TVs Laugh-In comedy hour in the '60s. They had this heavy set dumb looking Nazi soldier show up, now and again saying, "Veeery interesting, but stupid." I know my comment above (Christianity is upside down) probably sounds stupid or moronic to most people.
But thanks for asking how I got there Mike. That is a very very good question, but I would have to write my autobiography here to answer it completely. I will make a few good points about it here and also recommend you guys take a look at my blog @ http://www.fortuneflourishingfun.com/blog where I am discussing how I arrived at Christianity being upside down as well as where I am going with it. I am in the process of writing a book entitled Fortune Flourisng Fun and my blog is to help me write by discussing it with people around the globe. So any pro or con comments and/or questions you guys have are welcome. Hopefully you will learn some useful things there as well.
In '73 I opened my heart to Jesus without any middlemen like Ray Comfort or Billy Graham. It was and always has been just Jesus and me without Bible study, sermons, church, or any kind of brotherhood. You see, I was born with Asberger's syndrome, which is a mild type of autism that gives people weak social skills. I have always shied away from social groups and gatherings because I feel very uncomfortable with them. However I am breaking through that know more and more.
Jesus and I have not had conversations, like Neale Donald Walch in Conversations with God, but I know a lot of my ideas are coming from Him, aka the Way and the Truth and the Life. I feel Jesus organized many experiences and events in my life because He needs someone to turn Christianity right-side up.
As I said on Matt's blog the Way and the Truth and the Life is back enlightening people to the real value or truth of things. And your comments below say to me that the Way and the Truth and the Life has influenced your beliefs to be more truthful.
As Miceal Ledwith, Biblical scholar and former adviser to the Pope writes, "If you believe it is as easy for us to read and understand the New Testament as it is to read and understand the morning newspaper, then you would probably have to concede that this is so. But the Bible, even the New Testament, comes out of a time and culture that is as far removed from us today as it is possible to imagine. Its techniques of communication have little in common with the techniques of the New York Times or The Washington Post. It is far more close to the techniques used by fiction writers of genius in our own day, such as JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis, or Jonathan Swift in former times."
I have been trying to imagine how people could live in the time of Jesus without the modern conveniences (hot water, AC, toilets, internet, beds without cockroaches etc....) A big part of turning Christianity rightside up is knowing how stories can change a lot from one person to another, let alone from 2000 years ago and a culture it is hard to imagine. My therory is based on how the Greek word that has been translated in the Bible to faith meant something quite different from how we define it. I think the Greek word translated must have some feel good or fun connotation to it. I wonder if the Greeks even had a word for fun.
And the word sin is a very interesting word. It is my conviction that the word that has been translated to sin from Greek meant something more like being dumb shit and hurting onself. Because if we have a definition of God being Almighty it is not possible to offend Him or do something He doesn't like; God made us in His image with free will so we have a choice about everything. You have choosen and created everything in your life without exception. Jesus chose not suffer, and it was an absolute no-brainer for someone who had performed miracles all His life to end suffering. Jesus even chose to come back from the dead. The tagline of my blog and a summary of Jesus' message about human life is: Joy is certain, death is optional.
Finally, you choose based on how you feel about something. If you feel good about it you will probably stay with it; and if you feel uncomfortable you will let it go. And as I discuss on my site the better you feel the more good luck and success you will have. And that is because you will be enlivening your almighty image of God.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Thanks Dhanamjaya. I vaguely remember Laugh In, It was a few years before my time.
You mentioned Neale Donald Walsch, it sounds like your ideas would not be entirely incompatible with his. Interesting stuff!
Blissfit
· 1 year ago
Have you read Conversations with God? Walsch tells his story that how he got started talking to God was when he was at his wits end or you might say very weary.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Yes, I read the first one and have the other two on my list as well as Tomorrow's God. I like Walsch. I think he's sincere and I like a lot of the ideas he shares.
Matt
· 1 year ago
I totally know how you feel man...i still cant explain half of my former life...nor my almost polarizing change in beliefs
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
It's almost like someone flipped a switch.
Jonathan
· 1 year ago
Hey all, Mike is a very close friend of mine. Since I have known him (In our early teens) he has always been sincere. No one I know has tried harder to understand the world and universe around him. It's too bad you all could not have sat in on some of our great conversations concerning these things you are discussing over the years. The older i get the more I grow silent. Listening more is a good thing In my opinion.
Just so you know, Karla, Matt, etc. someone is doing just that.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Thanks Bro. :-)
GuidingLight
· 1 year ago
You have a fascinating story. I was raised a Christian, but my perception of God has changed over the years. I have had many spiritual experiences that likely would not be sanctioned by the church, and therefore I rarely attend. There are plenty of us "free" and thinking believers who have chosen NOT to force the Creator into a box of an absolute persona defined by any of the various denominations that claim to be the only way. The difference between us and you, I guess, is that we cannot invalidate or abandon our experiences and so we continue to seek the truth, just as you do. Our perspective is different, because we still believe in the universal source of power. Sorry to ramble - my point is - Whatever your decisions, I applaud your decision to "think."
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Thanks, Sandra. I revisit those experiences on occasion in my mind. I realized that I had similar if not identical experiences in other parts of my life. Perhaps there is something greater causing them than the endorphins coursing through our bodies. I've prayed asking about those times, asking if there is something I am missing now. I'm still waiting for an answer, and perhaps I will get it some day. As I stare out my window right now, looking at the golden sun touching the tree tops, with the crisp blue sky as a back drop, I realize that right now, it doesn't matter to me. Maybe it will again someday, but right now, I'm just going to drink in life one day at a time. :-)
Thank you for your kind words. I hope you will continue to read and comment here.
Blissfit
· 1 year ago
The present, the gift of right now, is fortunately what you've accepted more than most. And that's wonderful because how you feel in the present is all you ever will have as Truth. The way to full blown truth is to cultivate a truly healthy heart. That is, have fun in thought and action, exercise, eat healthy wholesome food. And as you continue sincerely believing in your unencumbered feelings you will be going more and more in the direction of Truth.
And if Jesus did exist as a representative of full blown Truth then you are following much closer to Him than most devout/zombie Christians.
I recently read in another Life Coach blog, “You are on this journey to learn to trust yourself.” Keep on trusting your unencumbered feelings and you will enjoy the True Freedom of Life. Life is Freedom.
Mike aka MonolithTMA
· 1 year ago
Thanks, Dhanamjaya, you always have such an interesting perspective. :-)
Blissfit
· 1 year ago
Mike, who makes it interesting? You do!
Some Christians would not see it all that interesting and interpret it into whatever they want, just like Christian leaders have interpreted the Bible into what they want. For example, the core Christian belief of Jesus suffering incredible pain to pay the punishment price of His believer's sins or wrongdoing. That is an absolutely ridiculous way for someone of Jesus' stature to save people but that is what Christianity fervently preaches because that's the way they want to see it.
You can make anything in life, and life itself, whatever you want it to be. It's called free will but you must be healthy in mind and body for your creation to be good and worthwhile. The main idea of the Art and Science of Funology page on my blog is: our Creator granted us free will to either feel bad and create problems or to feel good and promote our health, wealth and wisdom; the better we feel — the more miraculous our creation; the more pain or lack we feel — the more disastrous our creation.
All Comments
Unfortunately that is the way of things with any Absolutist belief. I 'enjoy' debating with Theists as long as they are open to debate which, in my experience, tends not to last for very long. I'm still undecided if most of them are unwilling to debate their faith or simply unable to do so...
I would say some are unwilling and some are unable, but there are some who are able and willing.
Are not atheists absolutists as well? Unless your an agnostic that is. Maintaining that all religions are false is a greater absolutist position than a Christian who says there is truth in all worldviews/belief systems/religion but that two contradictory truth claims cannot be true.
Yes, some atheists are absolutists, but my reason for not being an absolutist is the same as my argument against atheism when I was a Christian. I am not omniscient, thus I can not know for a fact that God does not exist.
I'm glad that you can see some truth in other religions. Someone wise once said, "Is truth not the same in any mouth?" However, there are many Christians who do not acknowledge the truth found in other religions. In fact, I've met many Christians who were appalled at event he suggestion that other religions even contained a little truth. When I was a Christian I always felt God was big enough to reach anyone, anywhere, regardless of circumstance or religious affiliation.
Certainly we can agree that "two contradictory truth claims cannot be true." But truth claims in religion are not quite the same as mathematical or scientific truth claims. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? ;-)
All religions can't be right. But that doesn't mean they are all wrong either. Even Christianity doesn't teach that all others are 100% false and have no truth in them. As a Christian I know that there is truth in other religions for we all live in the real world. However, the truth is distorted and incomplete.
I don't want to believe anything because it makes me happy. I believe something because it's true and for no other reason. Moreover, Christianity isn't simply about believing but becoming. Being a Christian is who I am not just what I believe.
I'm sorry that you are weary. Life is found in truth. I hope your hunger for truth will aid your journey and bring you life once again.
I haven't read St. John of The Cross in a while, but what I recall of his works regarding the dark night of the soul is nothing like what I am experiencing now. I have life now and have it more abundantly. It's incredibly freeing to wake up and realize that I'm no longer a member of a group that thinks it, amongst many, is the 100% truth.
If everything hangs on God's existence he sure doesn't seem too concerned about a consistent message.
Paul Washer video
When you go out to eat do you leave tracts instead of cash?
Dan, when I became a Christian I turned away from sin. I destroyed my evil cassette tapes and books. I didn't say any magic words to become a Christian. I repented of my sins and dedicated my life to Christ. I don't have a clue what day I accepted Christ and I railed against many of the things Washer railed against in that video.
Here, I made a video and dedicated it to you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziuUedBByyg
He has given us a consistent message, I think you know it well.
Question do you read atheists books like Dawkins and stuff?
I have gleaned a consistent message from scripture, but that also has required me to struggle with and perhaps even ignore difficult content in the Bible and I'm not talking about miracles, I believed in those.
I've read Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris, and while I agree with them on many points, I do not necessarily agree with their final conclusions. The existence of this site is evidence that I do not think religions should be eliminated.
I may very well end up a theist again at some point, but I seriously doubt it will be as any kind of traditional Christian. I just don't believe those things any more.
I would recommend "The Real Face of Atheism" by Ravi Zacharias as well as "Jesus Among Other Gods"
Also, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel
"Miracles" and "Mere Christianity" are excellent by C.S. Lewis if you like very intellectual books.
Have you read any of those?
I haven't read Strobel's The Case For Christ, but I did read The Case For a Creator, but found it almost dishonest in it's onesidedness and understand that he uses similar methods in The Case For Christ.
I did re-read Mere Christianity after de-converting and did find his borderline pluralism very refreshing.
You know Strobel was an atheist when he embarked on his Case For Christ research. I found it in line with all the other books I've read on the topic from many different authors and experts. I try to read nearly 50 books a year. I typically average 40 a year but I strive for 52.
I did enjoy the Lotus and the Cross. I've read every book by Ravi and have many DVD's, CD's and attended two lectures.
Check out The Real Face of Atheism and see what you think.
Totally off topic:
I'm not liking the way these comments are getting squished here. Oh well. ;-)
Was C.S. Lewis a pluralist?
Here is the passage:
"from pg176 of Mere Christianity:
There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position."
In a sense, ' kind of self-defeating, because it's almost guaranteed(with supporting evidence above) that the Theist will recommend only companion books that support their chosen deity. If the suggestion is that "Truth" is found in religiously revealed "knowledge", then one shouldn't limit themselves to one philosophy, right? Why not explore Mormonism, Jainism, Buddhism, etc., etc., etc., etc., too?
Also, I respectfully take issue with the notion that "God" - presumably an "Omniscient", "Omnipotent", and "Omni-present" being - is "still pursuing you"(Mike). Seriously now, said being knows precisely what it would take to reconvert you. Your "free will" shouldn't be a factor, because you can still exercise your "free will" to reject this "God", even if it "caught you" in its "pursuit" of you.
Boom'.
[laughs] I was lent 'Mere Christianity' by a christian @ work who (maybe) hoped to convert me - apparently the Lewis book did it for him. After struggling with the badly constructed 'arguments' I gave up after the first 3 sections and gave him his book back. I found it to be terribly written nonsense and *really* struggled to think how it could have convinced anyone to become a Christian.
Now the above upside down Christian belief further deludes devout Christians, as well as people in other religions, into preaching and believing the backward advice that one should look forward to going to heaven in the future as the result, or reward, of action in the present. Because as everyone knows, the problem with looking forward to results is it prevents or distracts one's full enjoyment of what he or she does in the present, and thereby miss out on the wise council of Ralph Waldo Emerson, who said, “The reward of a thing well done is having done it.”
I propose Heaven and Hell are in one's present experience of good and bad respectively; and when we drop our body, and we are beyond time and space, Heaven and Hell will be the sum total of all the good and bad we experienced as an image of God on Earth. And if one has not done justice to his or her self, experiencing the wonders of living in the image of God, they will be remorseful like having sold a diamond for the price of spinach.
Did you guys every watch TVs Laugh-In comedy hour in the '60s. They had this heavy set dumb looking Nazi soldier show up, now and again saying, "Veeery interesting, but stupid." I know my comment above (Christianity is upside down) probably sounds stupid or moronic to most people.
But thanks for asking how I got there Mike. That is a very very good question, but I would have to write my autobiography here to answer it completely. I will make a few good points about it here and also recommend you guys take a look at my blog @ http://www.fortuneflourishingfun.com/blog where I am discussing how I arrived at Christianity being upside down as well as where I am going with it. I am in the process of writing a book entitled Fortune Flourisng Fun and my blog is to help me write by discussing it with people around the globe. So any pro or con comments and/or questions you guys have are welcome. Hopefully you will learn some useful things there as well.
In '73 I opened my heart to Jesus without any middlemen like Ray Comfort or Billy Graham. It was and always has been just Jesus and me without Bible study, sermons, church, or any kind of brotherhood. You see, I was born with Asberger's syndrome, which is a mild type of autism that gives people weak social skills. I have always shied away from social groups and gatherings because I feel very uncomfortable with them. However I am breaking through that know more and more.
Jesus and I have not had conversations, like Neale Donald Walch in Conversations with God, but I know a lot of my ideas are coming from Him, aka the Way and the Truth and the Life. I feel Jesus organized many experiences and events in my life because He needs someone to turn Christianity right-side up.
As I said on Matt's blog the Way and the Truth and the Life is back enlightening people to the real value or truth of things. And your comments below say to me that the Way and the Truth and the Life has influenced your beliefs to be more truthful.
As Miceal Ledwith, Biblical scholar and former adviser to the Pope writes, "If you believe it is as easy for us to read and understand the New Testament as it is to read and understand the morning newspaper, then you would probably have to concede that this is so. But the Bible, even the New Testament, comes out of a time and culture that is as far removed from us today as it is possible to imagine. Its techniques of communication have little in common with the techniques of the New York Times or The Washington Post. It is far more close to the techniques used by fiction writers of genius in our own day, such as JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis, or Jonathan Swift in former times."
I have been trying to imagine how people could live in the time of Jesus without the modern conveniences (hot water, AC, toilets, internet, beds without cockroaches etc....) A big part of turning Christianity rightside up is knowing how stories can change a lot from one person to another, let alone from 2000 years ago and a culture it is hard to imagine. My therory is based on how the Greek word that has been translated in the Bible to faith meant something quite different from how we define it. I think the Greek word translated must have some feel good or fun connotation to it. I wonder if the Greeks even had a word for fun.
And the word sin is a very interesting word. It is my conviction that the word that has been translated to sin from Greek meant something more like being dumb shit and hurting onself. Because if we have a definition of God being Almighty it is not possible to offend Him or do something He doesn't like; God made us in His image with free will so we have a choice about everything. You have choosen and created everything in your life without exception. Jesus chose not suffer, and it was an absolute no-brainer for someone who had performed miracles all His life to end suffering. Jesus even chose to come back from the dead. The tagline of my blog and a summary of Jesus' message about human life is: Joy is certain, death is optional.
Finally, you choose based on how you feel about something. If you feel good about it you will probably stay with it; and if you feel uncomfortable you will let it go. And as I discuss on my site the better you feel the more good luck and success you will have. And that is because you will be enlivening your almighty image of God.
You mentioned Neale Donald Walsch, it sounds like your ideas would not be entirely incompatible with his. Interesting stuff!
Walsch tells his story that how he got started talking to God was when he was at his wits end or you might say very weary.
Just so you know, Karla, Matt, etc. someone is doing just that.
Thank you for your kind words. I hope you will continue to read and comment here.
And if Jesus did exist as a representative of full blown Truth then you are following much closer to Him than most devout/zombie Christians.
I recently read in another Life Coach blog, “You are on this journey to learn to trust yourself.” Keep on trusting your unencumbered feelings and you will enjoy the True Freedom of Life. Life is Freedom.
Some Christians would not see it all that interesting and interpret it into whatever they want, just like Christian leaders have interpreted the Bible into what they want. For example, the core Christian belief of Jesus suffering incredible pain to pay the punishment price of His believer's sins or wrongdoing. That is an absolutely ridiculous way for someone of Jesus' stature to save people but that is what Christianity fervently preaches because that's the way they want to see it.
You can make anything in life, and life itself, whatever you want it to be. It's called free will but you must be healthy in mind and body for your creation to be good and worthwhile. The main idea of the Art and Science of Funology page on my blog is: our Creator granted us free will to either feel bad and create problems or to feel good and promote our health, wealth and wisdom; the better we feel — the more miraculous our creation; the more pain or lack we feel — the more disastrous our creation.