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I got to your post from Larry Niven's blog. I spent some time in the US in 2001/2 (work related in New Jersey, Texas and California on and off over 15 mths). One of the things that struck me was the almost obsession with religion that one doesn't find in Europe or UK or where I come from, Oz.
In America, going by what one reads in the paper or hears on the radio, or sees in the streets, there is Christian fudamentalism or there is atheism with nothing in between. Views seem to be much more diverse over here with less hysteria.
I agree with you that God is an experience and if you don't have the experience then you should be an atheist - I don't discriminate. For people who do have the experience then it 's something deeply personal that has nothing to do with anyone else. It doesn't make either one (atheist or theist) better or superior to the other; that's my view because my experience tells me that.
I argue with fundamentalists because they believe they have a monopoly on truth, and I like to show them the fallacy of their certainty.
I think you're on the right track just by being honest with yourself, and expecting others to be the same.
Regards, Paul.
"I argue with fundamentalists because they believe they have a monopoly on truth, and I like to show them the fallacy of their certainty."
That is precisely my problem with fundamentalists of any kind. None of us are going to know if we are right until we die and go nowhere or somewhere...we shall see. ;-)
I like to quote Socrates who (apparently) said: wether death is a door to another world or an endless sleep we don't know. And I like to add: And we are not meant to know.
Personally, I can face death with that uncertainty, because, either way, you won't know until after it happens. People don't seem to appreciate that death is like falling asleep: you never actually remember falling asleep because it happens when you're unconscious.
I don't have a problem with people believing in an afterlife as long as they keep it in perspective. This is the only life one knows about, so we should live it with that in mind. It's when people live this life in the belief that their next life (the one that they don't know anything about and may not even exist) is more important than the one they are actually living, that they start doing perverse things: like flying planes into buidlings to give an extreme example. Less extreme examples are ostracising your kids because you believe they are going to go to hell.
I'm sure you're right about the less extreme in the States, otherwise you wouldn't have the new President you've got. It's just that it was a bit of a cultural shock for me, especially in Texas.
Regards, Paul.
Paul
In constrast 1 Peter 3:15 says to always be able to give an answer to anyone who ask the reason for the hope that you have in Christ Jesus . . . but to do so with gentleness and respect.
This verse is about how to share our faith -- not as one that attacks, but one that answers gently and respectfully. This is what guides me in apologetics. I know I don't always master this gentleness, but I aim to in all that I say. In fact, I have recently tried to interact less with anyone who is argumentative than I did last year to avoid any contention and warring with another, for it can never become about that.
I just want to be available for those who have questions and are really interested in learning more about why we Christians believe as we do. I want to write on some of the main topics of contention, but I want to do so always respecting the other's view for we are all made in the image of God and I have no license to treat anyone any differently because of their beliefs, lifestyle, politics, culture, etc.
I respect missionaries who actually help people. If they are truly helping people they could be doing in the name of Zeus for all I care.
2 Cor 10:5 is interesting as it is one of the times where Paul or whoever was writing in his name sounds like a gnostic Christian.
In reply to the nice lady, Karla, I note that what makes Christianity so offensive to thinking persons are the doctrines of hell, original sin, Yahweh's moral perfection and sovereign free will. Taken together these doctrines mean Yahweh not only wants to send all humans to hell but is morally justified in so doing. The implication that a morally perfect being wants to torture me forever is nothing if not the perfect insult. Whenever anyone asserts Christianity is in some sense true, they are insulting me, my family, everyone I hold dear, and indeed all of humanity.
I am content to vent my outrage stemming from the insult of Christianity by arguing against the vile Asian superstition. As I learn more, I will use my gnosis to defeat Christian apologists at their own game.
The tone of your last paragraph is extremely uncharitable, and I think, offensive. You won't win any hearts or persuade anybody with comments like those. Just reading it, I would assume that any attempt at offering a defense of the faith to you would reap nothing but insults.
Before embarking on your journey to destroy the 'vile superstition' be sure to be a little more precise with your claims. Know what your target believes. You said that 'Yahweh... wants to send all humans to hell'- yet the claim of Christianity is the exact opposite- an escape from hell offered to all people. Clearly He does not want to send all humans to hell- because He offers an out. Your claim was imprecise and ignores the central message of the religion you despise and seek to defeat! The entire point of Christianity is the overwriting of the very things that you find offensive;original sin-covered, hell-you don't have to end up there.You consider the claims of Christianity to be insulting, yet it is offered equally to all people.
My point is, when you tell a Christian that it is clear God wants all humans to go to hell, that person is going to question (rightfully) whether you even understand Christianity.
Peace,
Garret
Technically the god of the Bible created most not all humans as bound for hell.
I don't think Robert is arguing about what people believe, but rather what they should believe if they really believe the Bible. Now if hell isn't a real place, like some Christians believe, then you have a different situation entirely. I'm pretty sure most evangelical Christians believe in a literal hell, and they really should be aware that about 98% of the people they see are going there.
The claims of the most common flavors of Christianity are insulting , because it claims that beautiful, sweet babies are born as evil sinners. Next time you hold a baby in your arms, try to remember how wicked it is.
Thanks for having this forum for discussion. The point I made above was valid- he made a comment that you have demonstrated to be theologically incorrect. I merely asked for precision.
98%? None of us knows this to be fact. Most people seem to parody hell as a place of physical torture, as though God inflicts pain on them. Weeping and gnashing of teeth implies regret and anger (this comes from within). Fire and darkness represent judgement- are they literal? There are good reasons to think not.
Why would I think a baby is 'wicked?' Wicked tends to refer to behavior, not inherent falleness.
Yes we are all born as sinners- I don't have a problem believing this considering that children need to be trained to be anything but selfish. All of us parents can appreciate the 'terrible twos'- inborn in all of us is the desire to seek self gratification at all costs, and we despise authority at a very young age.
Thanks
98% may be an exaggeration, but 2% of billions or trillions of lives would definitely qualify for "only a few find it."
thanks-peace!
Thanks!
Jesus could be talking about destructive lifestyles and how many ways there are to ruin your life.
I find that many times what people are rejecting isn't necessarily following Jesus, but dyed-in-the-wool Christian ways of thinking that never question what they've been taught.
Why lump it all together and claim THIS is Christianity? And then reject all of Christianity because of one view?
The branches that obsess with hell think that the ones who don't believe like they do are destined for hell along with all the other heathens.
Personally I don't reject Christianity or theism in general because of what some teach. My rejection is personal in that I don't experience anything in my life that I would identify as God. Will that change in the future? Certainly it's possible.
(part of the thread seems to be stuck on italics)
My response: If "hell" exists and all non-christians(most of humanity) will end up there, then whether or not this alleged biblegod "wants" this to occur, is besides the point.
For God to really be God, He/She (God is both, and neither), has to be bigger than all the boxes we put Him in. But there's no reason to just toss out the idea of God altogether just because people can't agree about God.
I don't reject God because of what someone says about him, I reject exclusivity because of that, but not God.
I apologize that this comment is off topic to the specific subject under discussion, but as it is related to the blog as a whole, I thought it generally appropriate to post.
In celebration of the 150th anniversary of Charles Darwin’s The Origin of the Species as well as the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin himself—and just in time for Darwin Day—I would like to invite all readers of this excellent blog to read The Evolutionary Wager: How the Ideas of Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins and Evolution Itself Negate Atheism and Point to Christianity at www.theevolutionarywager.blogspot.com.
Any comments, reviews or e-mails are greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
RD Miksa
Funny thing is... I consider myself a Christian (hopefully Jesus does too). However, I am certain that my sh*t stinks. I am also quite certain that LOVE requires freedom of choice. How would being an A-hole inspire people to love Jesus? Man I'm getting ticked just thinking about all of this... Sorry, I do not see myself ever embracing atheism. That's my choice. And yet, I respect your choice.
And while I am a little bitter about admitting it, many Atheists are more inteligent, more articulate, and better looking than me. I am especially sensitive about the better looking part. Of course, my worldview holds that God loves us all equally. That makes me feel a little better ; ]
I know many Christians and atheists who are more intelligent, better read, and more articulate than me. I try not to let it bother me too much. ;-)