Atheists And Christians Community Blog - Latest Comments in Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:07:59 -0000

"...just be grateful for what I have and try to treat everybody I come in contact with in a way that I would find beneficial."

That works for me!

Thanks!

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

jebshaven — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:41:54 -0000

I suspect that, if we don't blink out like a light bulb when we kick, a lot of folks will be saying, "Oh Shit! this isn't what I expected". So we'll just have to wait and see, eh? In the meantime I
find it profitable, in a feeling good about myself kind of way, to just be grateful for what I have and try to treat everybody I come in contact with in a way that I would find beneficial. If that
not good enough for Zeus he can take a hike. LOL
Be good to yourself Mike and thanks for this post.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:11:33 -0000

Yes, and you perceive all those things, so it's not more than that.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:07:17 -0000

We can have more than that. You can connect with something real that awakens your spirit as you hunger after truth seeking to find it. I think being on the journey is far more rewarding than leaving all seeking behind, not saying your doing this, I don't know where your at.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:27:49 -0000

Of course most theistic religions claim their "truth" came from their god. We have nothing but our perception to determine which is correct.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:01:48 -0000

It would only be arrogance if the claim of truth originated with man. It would be humility to accept God's truth and arrogance to prefer our own creation of what is. If all religion is a human invention, then any claim of superiority of invention would be arrogant, but if there is in the mix a way to God, not created by man, but given by God then it would be humility to travel that road and compassion to share the knowledge with others.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:04:31 -0000

"The Jewish people have an entire history of the reality of God." And the Indian people, and just about every other culture.

Islam shares the Jewish and Christian histories too.

You are right, something doesn't have to be proven to be true, but to declare others heretics based on something you can't prove would seem the height of arrogance to me.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:47:17 -0000

As you know I try to stay away from using verses and saying something's true because the Bible says so. There's not much use in going there when talking to people who don't believe the purported Author of the Bible exist. If the Author isn't real, the book isn't much use.

The Jewish people have an entire history of the reality of God. And Christianity shares that history. I'm not sure your premise is correct. Also something doesn't have to be proved to the whole world to be true.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 10:45:43 -0000

Because no one in the entire history of humanity has proven their god or gods exist. If you can't even prove YHWH/Jesus exist as deitys how can you prove that any Christian doctrine is true? You can make claims of whether or not they are biblical, but just because they are biblical does not make them true.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:55:19 -0000

You are arguing that no one can know any doctrine is true, thus no one with religious belief can say any doctrine is false. That is a truth claim in and of itself. It is a claim of truth about religious doctrine, that all of it is unknowable. In fact it is more than a philosophical claim, it' s a moral assertion that no one ought to call any doctrine heresy or any bearer of that heresy a heretic. But how do you know that such knowledge cannot be known and that truth in this context isn't distinguishable?

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:16:51 -0000

"No it's self defeating to say it is impossible to know any doctrine as true. That is if "doctrine" and "truth claim" are interchangeable which I think they are if you remove the religious terminology."

It would be self defeating if I were trying to argue that my particular religious doctrine is true, but I don't have a religious doctrine.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:09:45 -0000

"God "gives" us truth, like you said, we humans still need to decide whether to acknowledge it as truth. Is that clearer?"

Okay. Yes. It wouldn't be helpful to us if it were not possible to see what He has given as truth.

"Agreement is not a condition of truth, but it is a condition of logical arguments, we have to agree on our premises to even have the discussion. You proposed that God would give one true path, obviously for people to accept it they would have to have to see the logic of that path."

I see what your saying now.

"Really? It's self defeating for me to say the unprovable is unprovable? Maybe it's redundant, but it's hardly self defeating."

No it's self defeating to say it is impossible to know any doctrine as true. That is if "doctrine" and "truth claim" are interchangeable which I think they are if you remove the religious terminology.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:21:02 -0000

"Not sure I follow you. Who would have to decide? "

God "gives" us truth, like you said, we humans still need to decide whether to acknowledge it as truth. Is that clearer?

"Why does it have to be to everyone's satisfaction? How is agreement a condition of truth? "

Agreement is not a condition of truth, but it is a condition of logical arguments, we have to agree on our premises to even have the discussion. You proposed that God would give one true path, obviously for people to accept it they would have to have to see the logic of that path.

"How do you know that statement is correct? You are making a truth claim by saying that and it's rather self-defeating."

Really? It's self defeating for me to say the unprovable is unprovable? Maybe it's redundant, but it's hardly self defeating.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:07:12 -0000

Mike "We would also have to decide whether we thought that was true, so we are at the same place."

Not sure I follow you. Who would have to decide?

Mike "And how would we determine this to everyone's satisfaction? Which monotheistic religion shines above all the others? If I ask you, you'd say Christianity, if I ask a member of Islam guess what they would say."

Why does it have to be to everyone's satisfaction? How is agreement a condition of truth?

Mike "Of course it would be correct to take the true path, but the whole point of this blog post is that you can't know that your doctrine is any more true than someone elses."

How do you know that statement is correct? You are making a truth claim by saying that and it's rather self-defeating.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:49:32 -0000

"What if it isn't a matter of us deciding what is true, but being given what is true?"

We would also have to decide whether we thought that was true, so we are at the same place.

"What if man, collectively, has made lots of roads to God as we all have a sense that we ought to reach Him, but God has given us a road to Himself and ask us to walk that road."

The main monotheistic religions all have texts claiming they came from their god. All of them were given their paths by their god.

"If it could be determined that God, Himself, has provided such a road, wouldn't it shine above the man made roads and be something that is true, not because we think it to be, but because He made it thus?"

And how would we determine this to everyone's satisfaction? Which monotheistic religion shines above all the others? If I ask you, you'd say Christianity, if I ask a member of Islam guess what they would say.

"Wouldn't it then be good to take such a road and not the others?"

Of course it would be correct to take the true path, but the whole point of this blog post is that you can't know that your doctrine is any more true than someone elses.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:23:30 -0000

What if it isn't a matter of us deciding what is true, but being given what is true? What if man, collectively, has made lots of roads to God as we all have a sense that we ought to reach Him, but God has given us a road to Himself and ask us to walk that road. If it could be determined that God, Himself, has provided such a road, wouldn't it shine above the man made roads and be something that is true, not because we think it to be, but because He made it thus? Wouldn't it then be good to take such a road and not the others?

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:03:19 -0000

Theological concepts may be true or false, but how would we ever decide on a
way to measure those things? Certainly things can be true that we can't
prove 100%, but if we can't prove it we can't be honestly certain.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:54:01 -0000

So you don't think there are theological things that are true and false? Are not all religions making truth claims? Why does proof or lack thereof make something more or less true? Cannot something be true that we can't prove 100%?

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:32:49 -0000

Karla said: "So wouldn't part of exposing falsehood be showing it to be something not true, something that 'is not'."

Yes, that's the very definition of exposing falsehoods.

Karla said: "And if that 'exposing falsehoods' was put into religious language would that not be exposing something as 'heretical'?"

This is where it falls apart, because theological concepts are different than truth about the physical world. We all agree and can support the truth that when I stand on the earth and drop an apple, it will fall, and unless caught, hit the ground. However one cannot prove, say, The Trinity, in the same way, and yet some would call those who don't believe in The Trinity heretics.

Karla said: "Is it then the labeling something as "untrue" that is unethical to you, or is it perhaps when the bearer of the falsehood or heresy is treated unethically that creates the injustice."

The injustice is when one person with an unprovable belief calls someone who holds a contrary, possibly also unprovable, belief a heretic.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:19:21 -0000

Okay, we both agree with Aristotle then as that is basic logic. So wouldn't part of exposing falsehood be showing it to be something not true, something that "is not". And if that "exposing falsehoods" was put into religious language would that not be exposing something as "heretical"? Is it then the labeling something as "untrue" that is unethical to you, or is it perhaps when the bearer of the falsehood or heresy is treated unethically that creates the injustice.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:02:18 -0000

That's rather redundant. The truth about truth? We should aim to know what is true, of course, and that means exposing falsehoods.

Aristotle said “To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false; while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true”

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Karla — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:54:39 -0000

Mike, I'm still thinking on this topic. Do you think we should aim to know the truth about truth and the truth about what is false?

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:43:39 -0000

Indeed, especially since theories are always open to criticism.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Sabio Lantz — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:17:25 -0000

Dogma -- an evil word -- "theory" is so much nicer.

Re: Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:36:21 -0000

Thanks for stopping by. :-)