Atheists And Christians Community Blog - Latest Comments in An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:19:58 -0000

Yeah, I'd be pissed too!

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

boomSLANG — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:34:43 -0000

Yeah, and I'm sure that being cursed to crawl on their bellies gives them a huge chip on their shoulder to begin with.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:35:26 -0000

Yep, most snakes mind their own business. They don't like being tripped over
or trod on though.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

boomSLANG — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 11:45:42 -0000

....none of it can be known for certain.

Right, that's where "faith" should take over, but unfortunately, too many Christians claim to know "for certain". Some try to argue that "faith" is simply to "trust" that it's true, but we know that "trust" is built upon a proven, verifiable track-record, whereas "faith" is not.

PS: Boomslang's generally mind their own biz' in nature. It's when you try to screw around with them that they may bite.

Adios.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:03:55 -0000

boomSLANG,

From what I've seen many read the Bible and learn different theologies and
some parts resonate with them and some do not. That which resonates with
them or seems true to them is true to them. I've seen this from liberal and
conservative Christians. Like any other work of literature we each take
something different away. It's just that some decide that their
interpretation is the correct one. Of course no one claims the holy spirit
told them that their interpretation of Othello is the only correct one.

The only folks who have a leg to stand on are ones that have a good
understanding of the actual languages the Bible was written in and even then
we don't have any autographa so we have no way of knowing if what we have
today are even close to identical to the autographa. We can do lots of study
and approximation, but none of it can be known for certain.

By the way. I was watching the Discovery Channel last weekend and saw a
piece on your namesake. That's one frightening snake!

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

boomSLANG — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:24:25 -0000

I told my daughter that it made me sad that so much time was spent worshiping the creed and forgetting the message

Here's the problem: Where does "the creed" end, and "the message" begin? To my understanding, no bible-believing Christian can demonstrate(in any objective terms) that he or she knows the answer to this question.

If, for sake of argument, it is argued that "the message" is love your neighbor or perhaps "the Golden rule".... well, one doesn't need "Christianity" to uphold/promote these philosophies, or to know that these philosophies ensure our survival.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:49:00 -0000

Thank you for your comments. Suicide is so sad and worse so when it is caused by hatred and bigotry.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

KJ — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:42:23 -0000

Found you via Barb and thank you for the compliment =)

Interesting blog. I have never ever been hardcore Christian. At best a lackidasical Greek Orthodox. But I will admit I loathe organized religion with a passion. My daughter and I watched her friend in a prayer circle Wednesday morning. All gathered round the flag pole like good little Americans. I told my daughter that it made me sad that so much time was spent worshiping the creed and forgetting the message. I then said that it made me sad to think of the damage that some of them would grow up to do in Jesus's name.

That night one of those boys committed suicide. He was gay. Case closed.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:44:17 -0000

In 20 years I never thought of going back and here I am.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

boomSLANG — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:59:43 -0000

Jeff: I guess what I mean by true Christian is someone who has get beyond the idea of religion (religion = God is good, we are bad, try harder)

That's your interpretation of what "religion" is. Here's what American Heritage says on the matter:

Religion: "1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship."

As best as I can tell, you, and all Christians, are most certainly religious. This is not to say that each individual Christian does not believe that they have "a relationship" with their biblegod. The thing is, they can believe this, and still qualify as belonging to a "religion".

Continues...[a "true Christian" will] realize that Jesus is exactly who he said he was and can restrore our relationshiop with God.

I defy you to find me any believer in the Christian philosophy who readily concedes that "Jesus" was not "who he said he was".

In other words, despite your efforts, you are failing to provide any sort of objective distinction between a "Christian" and a "True Christian". The best you've got, as far as I can tell, is that a "True Christian" thinks and believes like "Jeff" does.

I think a lot of people who call themselves Christians understand this concept, but have not humbled themselves enough to fully experience this.

First of all, all "Christians" are "people who call themselves Christians". You've made a distinction without a drop of difference(again).

Secondly, how on earth do you know what other human beings have, or have not, experienced? Again, the implication seems to be that if a person doesn't believe, then they are deficient in some way. For example, they are not seeking with right humility, or they are too proud, or they weren't sincere, etc., etc.

In other words, you assume that the "faith" cannot fail the person, so then, in your mind, the only alternative is that it must be that the person has failed the "faith". If I have assessed this correctly(and I think I have), then answer this: What about a devout Muslim who converts to Christianity later on??? He or she certainly held their previous belief on "faith", right? Right, yet, that "faith" failed them, because they now believe something entirely different.

Case-in-point: If "faith" can, and does, fail people of other religions; if people of other religions can be self-deceived by their "faith", then guess what?... so can a "Christian" be deceived by his or her "faith". This is the quagmire that the religious have--their beliefs are not falsifiable. Their position dead-ends at "I believe".

Continues...Anyone who has experienced the redeeming work of Jesus authentically, I believe, can never go back.

What "redeeming work"? And how do you know what makes someone's experience "authentic", or not? Again, aren't you more or less just saying that if a person believes as you do - meaning, just as faithfully; just as fervently - then their "experience" is "authentic", but if they are skeptical and/or change their mind, then their experiences were not "authentic" to begin with?

Not that they are not able to choose to go back, just that they would not even think of going back to their old life because of the incredible peace that they have found reconnecting to their creator.

If a drunk finds "incredible peace" in drowning his or her sorrows in a different kind of "spirits", is that then a good reason for them to "never think of going back" to being sober and living in reality?

In other words, just because a religionist would "never think of going back", doesn't mean that they have found an objective, Universal "Truth".

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:38:14 -0000

Jeff,

"The only grounds for argument is if he did not actually say those words and that is a very difficult thing to prove."

Very true, it's equally difficult to prove that he did say those words.

"Without faith in God, what is morals? and what drives your moral compass?"

You do realize that lots of people act in what you and I would both agree is a moral way without believing in the Christian God, right? Yes, I know Romans 2:15 tells us the law is written on mens hearts and that's why nonbelievers do good. If that's the case then none of us could escape this ingrained moral compass. So your question would be moot.

You also realize that people can justify things that you and I would both agree are moral or immoral by using the Bible.

My hope for this blog is pretty clear. My hope is that Christians and non-Christians can sit down and discuss calmly, rationally, and respectfully. Do I have some sort of eternal hope similar to what the scripture is referencing? Nope.

We are squeezing the poor Disqus comment thread. ;-)

That's one of the things I don't like about this commenting system.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Jeff — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:01:55 -0000

Mike,
You are so right. I can see how me saying "Chrisitianity experiment" could be taken as offensive and was not a very respectful way to share my point. I am sorry for that.

You said, "He may have said them all and sincerely believed them, most of us have believed things that aren't true at some point or another and that doesn't make us lunatics. He could have just been sincerely wrong."

That would be a good point if Jesus said something less radical than the fact that he claimed he was God. That is not something that you can merely be sincerely wrong about. It is not like someone thinking the world is flat and then being wrong about it. C.S. Lewis really makes a brilliant point that there really is not another option other than liar, lunatic, or actually God. The only grounds for argument is if he did not actually say those words and that is a very difficult thing to prove.

I realize that I am not going to convince you of anything through information that you already know. Faith is a difficult thing. If it were totally obvious then it would not be faith. But the thing is we all choose something to have faith in. You choose to have faith that God does not exist. I choose to have faith that there is a God and the Bible just makes the most sense to understand the world around me that I see. I have a peace about it, I talk to God all the time. I would like to hear from Him with an audible voice and sometimes feel frustrated that he does not do that. I wish he would talk to you and give you a tangible sign. But it is faith and by faith I believe that God has infinite wisdom and has perfect reasons. I have noticed that the more I reach out to God through prayer and reading his word, the more peace and contentment I have in life. I also become more loving and giving to others when I reach out and connect with God. Without faith in God, what is morals? and what drives your moral compass?

Thanks for the discussion Mike. I appreciate that you put scripture in your post. " Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." I am curious, without God, what is your hope?

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:23:22 -0000

Jeff,

Ahh, Lewis' trillemma. Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. There are no other options? Of course there are other options. He might not have said any of the words attributed to him. He may have said them all and sincerely believed them, most of us have believed things that aren't true at some point or another and that doesn't make us lunatics. He could have just been sincerely wrong.

I used to believe that Jesus was the son of God, the son part of the Trinity, God himself, creator of all.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

It would have been me writing comments nearly identical to years a few years ago.

"your Christian life experiment" That could be taken rather offensively as have several of the other things you have written.

1 Peter 3:15

15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

Now I can tell that you do not mean to be offensive and that you have been careful in choosing your words, however if it is your wish to not offend non-believers you might want to try to put yourself in their shoes and read what you have written as if it were addressed to you.

I lived my faith for 20 years, my days spent in Bible study, prayer, fellowship with other believers, attempting to direct all my thoughts to God, etc.

I have no idea what changed. Maybe I would have slipped into some more liberal variant of Christianity or something else, but atheism? I did not choose this, in fact I went kicking and screaming. I call myself an agnostic atheist because I am not certain there is no God and I refuse to be certain of anything after spending 20 years certain of my faith. I have no idea what the future could bring.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Jeff — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:05:04 -0000

Mike,
Have you always felt that way about Jesus? That he was just a man who said some interesting things and drew some followers? What did you read or discover that gives you this point of view?

To me, Jesus is the crux of this entire discussion. Without Jesus there is no relationship with God. I am wondering if this is the piece you were missing in your Christian life experiment. It amazes me how many people call themselves Christians and do not actually believe that Jesus is who he said he was- God in the flesh. Jesus claimed to be God. That is an amazing thing that cannot make him just a man who said some interesting things and had some followers. He said that he was God so he was either 1)crazy/dillusional 2)an evil liar trying to trick everyone or 3)he actually was God incarnate coming to earth to tangibly demonstrate his love and redemption for all mankind. There are no other options. Which one do you pick?

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Jeff — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 15:00:17 -0000

Boomslang- I guess what I mean by true Christian is someone who has get beyond the idea of religion (religion = God is good, we are bad, try harder) and realize that Jesus is exactly who he said he was and can restrore our relationshiop with God. I think a lot of people who call themselves Christians understand this concept, but have not humbled themselves enough to fully experience this. Anyone who has experienced the redeeming work of Jesus authentically, I believe, can never go back. Not that they are not able to choose to go back, just that they would not even think of going back to their old life because of the incredible peace that they have found reconnecting to their creator. It would be like if you grew up in a small cardboard box never going outside and not even knowing there was an outdoors. Then one day someone opens a door and you realize how much beauty and how much you have been missing. You would never go back into that old dark box again.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:57:11 -0000

That's a good question, Jeff. I should do a post about it. I do think there was a man who lived 2000 or so years ago who went by some variation of the name Yeshua. He said some interesting things and drew some crowds and followers. As to the details of what we know about him, I'm certain of none of that. I do like some of the things he was purported to have said, but not all.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:52:34 -0000

And just as I post this, his shows up. I'm too impatient. ;-)

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:51:57 -0000

I'm hoping for a response from Jeff.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Jeff — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:49:42 -0000

Mike,
I admire how thoughtful you seem to be and how well you articulate your thoughts. This is fascinating. I respect where you are coming from and believe that you are comletely sincere.

One question I have for you is what do you think about Jesus?

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

boomSLANG — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:37:20 -0000

Jeff: A true Christian who has a deep and profound relationship with Christ could never decide to not believe anymore.

Is not a "true Christian" just another way of saying a "true believer" of the Christian philosophy?? If there's a definite distinction, I'm curious to learn what that distinction is.

In the mean time, I think the term "true Christian" is just another way of saying "true believer", and in that case, the term "true believer" then becomes redundant and nonsensical. The implication is that there are false believers. Now honestly, who would set out to believe something that was false?

Case-in-point, it is belief that makes one a believer in Christianity, thereby making them a "Christian". Unfortunately, there are no litmus tests; there is no way to measure who is, and who isn't, a "True Christian", because the belief, itself, is too broad. Subsequently, one cannot simply base it on people's actions.

Moreover, if one argues that the hallmark of a "True Christian" is that he or she, "could never decide to not believe anymore", then you are essentially eliminating free will. In other words, you are a robot for "Christ". 'Last I heard, being able to choose of your own free will whether or not to follow "Christ", is paramount to having a proper understanding of "God's Will". Did something change?

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:47:09 -0000

Hi Jeff, thanks for your comment.

Here's the deal. There is no way to tell who is or is not a True Christian™. You have committed the No true Scotsman Fallacy. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... If there is such a thing as a True Christian™ only God knows who they are.

You say you don't judge me, yet you also say "it was probably more of a religious thing than a relationship thing". It was all relationship and hardly any religion. I found religion troubling in that it seemed like something that just allowed one to go through the motions without really believing. I really thought what I was experiencing was God. Does God speak to you in a tangible voice, with words? That was all I was lacking. I felt what I thought was God's presence during worship both solo and corporate worship. I felt that God spoke to me in Scripture by revealing things to me. I felt that God gave me the right words to say when teaching his word and when witnessing to others. I went for very long periods of time directing nearly all my waking thoughts towards God, as close to praying without ceasing as I could get.

You say you do not judge me yet you call me a liar. "That is sad, but I think it is also not very honest." I used to have little patience for those that called me a liar, but I now realize that your misconception is not my fault so it's nothing for me to get upset about.

If I end up in Hell for being honest then so be it, but not all variants of Christianity would have me headed there, I would assume you would say they are not real Christians as well.

Lastly, you and many others have accused me of deciding not to believe. Tell me, how does one do that? I did not give up my belief willingly, there was not some sin that I desired so greatly that I pushed God away. If I could choose to believe in God I would, but that is impossible. Why would choose to alienate nearly all of my friends and family? The last several months of my faith involved me groveling daily at the foot of the cross. It would be so much easier just to believe, but I just cannot. That does not stop me from trying.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Jeff — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:46:54 -0000

I do not really believe that someone can be a former Christian. I do not doubt that you called yourself a Christian, but I think it was probably more of a religious thing than a relationship thing. A true Christian who has a deep and profound relationship with Christ could never decide to not believe anymore. Not that there might be struggles, but to abandon it altogether would just show that it was never there in the first place. You said that you tried to connect with God for many years, but never found him. That is sad, but I think it is also not very honest. I do not judge you, but your case proves the point that God does not send anyone to hell- people choose that for themselves. I hope you will reconsider your eternal destination and humble yourself before God.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Mike aka MonolithTMA — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 07:50:06 -0000

Thanks, Ron. I've seen that reaction too regarding hard core atheists who became Christians.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

Ron — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:06:01 -0000

As a former hardcore nihilist-turned-Christian, I've found that you often get that same kind of "challenged" and "intimidated" reaction from nonbelievers when they find out that you once viewed the Christian faith as irrational nonsense but now embrace it. I think it just naturally makes people uncomfortable to encounter someone who once shared their viewpoint but has since come to view things differently. And I think people are just naturally curious as to how and why you made that transition.

Re: An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

boomSLANG — Sun, 17 May 2009 10:06:43 -0000

Hi, again,

In seeking some objective confirmation for what the Theist calls a "miracle", I followed through, under the recommendation/invitation to visit Karla's blog, and sadly, I saw no such confirmation. I did see one statement in particular, though, that is worthy of comment:

I am not defining "miracle" as something unexplained, but as something caused by a supernatural being.

Hence, a miracle is not unexplained, it is explained as being supernatural.

This argument is lacking for a few reasons. For one thing, the premise is circular. Also, if one cannot explain how this alleged "supernatural being" performs the said "miracle(s)", then they have no "explanation" at all, but only a speculative hypothesis(which leads to question begging)

And again, even if we grant that there exists an invisible, personal, creator-being who grants *certain* religious affiliates their wishes by way of metaphysical intervention, no Theist (to my knowledge) has offered any objective confirmation that their respective deity is this aforementioned "miracle"-worker.